Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven?

the Intro with Scott, Marcy, and Todd

The crew kicks this episode off by summing up their summers over the past month. Marcy just finished up her sabbatical. During that time, her husband quit his job as a middle school teacher to pursue his music and find some joy again. Todd has had good family time, a knee sprain, and a backpacking trip. Scott’s son just started soccer, which is taking up quite a bit of time. And Scott is also excited about a new sermon series he’s been preparing for coming up this fall called “Clickbait”.

Scott wants our listeners to know that we want to use this podcast to talk about some of our beliefs and hit some more divisive topics in Christianity. We aren’t afraid to talk about stuff. We do recognize, however, that when we have guests we don’t always believe everything they say. We never want to confuse you and we are going to be breaking down the differences in beliefs we have between us and them. Here in the next few weeks, be looking for a “clean up” episode where we use the time to let you all know what we actually believe here at Zootown.

time to discuss today’s topic.

We want to use this platform to talk about certain topics, and today we are hitting head on some of the different views, denominations, and language used in Scriptures. The one we are addressing today is that there are two phrases used in Scripture: “Kingdom of God” and “Kingdom of Heaven”. Matthew used “Kingdom of Heaven” over and over, but the other Gospel writers used “Kingdom of God”. There’s a debate in Christianity that these are two different things. So to the best of our ability we’re going to discuss what those two things are.

(Sidenote: Todd brought a really big Bible. Like, really big. So clearly he’s got it together. The topic of today’s discussion is new to Marcy and she just cannot wait to give her expertise over something she just learned.)

Here we go. Really this whole debate comes from something called “dispensationalism”.

What is dispensationalism?

According to Wikipedia: Dispensationalism considers Biblical history as divided by God into defined periods or ages to which God has allotted distinctive administrative principles. According to dispensationalist theology, each age of God's plan is thus administered in a certain way, and humanity is held responsible as a steward during that time. Dispensationalists demonstrate the harmony of history as focusing on the glory of God and put God at its center - as opposed to a central focus on humanity and their need for salvation.

Dispensationalists use a different lens based on a time period in history to interpret bits of Scripture. They are huge on numbers and signs. A couple of examples include Enoch - who walked with the Lord and then God took him...so they say that means there’s a rapture. Similarly, they equate the flood to baptism. It seems as if dispensationalists read the subtext within the text. With words such as “heaven” or “God”, they really look into the words, instead of taking it as maybe it just being different authors saying “Kingdom of Heaven” or “Kingdom of God”.

Essentially, whatever kind of theological lane you go down, it affects how you read the Bible. We’re all on that path. There are certain hills we are absolutely going to die on. Christ is the only way to Heaven is a hill we will die on. He is the way, the truth, and the life. But the church has been divided on certain issues that should never have divided the church. Jesus’ last prayer was praying for the unity of the church. But pride and arrogance divides us. Dispensationalism is one of those things that divides us. (Though this is not one of those hills we are going to die on.) But here are our thoughts…

Scott asks where the issues are in breaking things into different ages and signs?

Todd disagrees with the framework. He says in that framework, it’s almost like you’re always looking for symbolism. Sometimes you have to make such a hard stretch, that probably doesn’t actually need to be there...rather than just taking the text at face value.

The problem Scott sees with it is that it’s inconsistent with most people’s view that God doesn’t change, and it justifies sin for some people and not for others. Take King David, for instance. People who really revere him have so many justifications for why he could get away with what he did. But when they do that, it’s like saying that God changed; like He wasn’t as serious about David’s sin but is super serious about our sin now.

On the other hand, Scott is a total conspiracy theorist, so dispensationalists speak his language in many ways as well.

A big voice in dispensationalist theology is Watchman Nee, who claims there is a difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven. He believes that the Kingdom of God was talking about the governmental procedures of God’s kingdom on this planet, while the Kingdom of Heaven was actually during the thousand year millennial reign. (Then if you believe in the rapture or see it as symbolism, that throws a monkey wrench into this whole thing.) Nee believed there was a difference between salvation and kingdom life. Basically, if you believed in Christ, you’re saved and your sins are forgiven. But if you don’t do anything with your Christian life, you would be thrown into this purgatory and miss the thousand year millennial reign.

What is our view on the Kingdom of Heaven vs. the Kingdom of God?

Todd is a simple guy. He thinks it’s just syntax. But that it’s purposeful that Matthew used the words he does (i.e. “Kingdom of Heaven”). The Gospels are all the same account of Jesus but from different vantage points, giving a fuller picture of all the conversations and interactions of the life of Jesus on this earth.

A little backstory of Matthew: He worked for the Roman government and he was a Jew. The Jewish understanding of the Messiah was an earthly kingdom to rule. So Todd thinks that Matthew, knowing this, was writing in a way that really addressed the Jewish people, in a way they could best understand. Jesus is the Messiah. But the Jews’ idea of God’s kingdom at that time was that the Messiah was going to be this earthly thing. He was going to be an earthly king who overthrew Rome and set up this earthly rule of Israel. So Matthew used the term “Kingdom of Heaven” to point out that it’s a spiritual kingdom...an internal kingdom you become a part of through the presence and forgiveness of Jesus. And that presence of Jesus in us is going to infect and influence everything we come into contact with. To Todd, it’s pretty clear that Scripture isn’t talking about two different things. Matthew was just using a term to better clarify to the Jewish people that the Messiah is here and His Kingdom is here and now in us.

Marcy says, before prepping for this podcast, she didn’t realize there were different words being used and that they could be different. She always assumed the Kingdom of Heaven was just Jesus talking about Himself. And she also acknowledges that there are probably a lot of people out there who, like her, hadn’t even read into this before either.

To Scott, one of the weird things about this subject is that really smart people are on two different sides of this. So he really wrestles with it and isn’t quick to be like “No, you’re an idiot.” However, as Brian Zahnd pointed out a few weeks ago, if you want to believe something, you can find it somewhere in the Bible. So, Scott admits there is some validity to that belief [dispensationalism], but he just doesn’t believe it.

Matthew 13:11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.”

Mark 4:11: He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables.”

It seems like these passages are talking about the same place. How do dispensationalists wrestle with that?

Todd says it’s the exact same account of Jesus talking, but Matthew and Mark just use different words. He thinks a bigger question to ask should be “What is the Kingdom of Heaven?” It is Jesus! Through His redemption and His presence in our lives, we have entered into the Kingdom of Heaven NOW, which leads into eternity in the presence of God. The Kingdom of Heaven is about a PERSON...the person of God. But it seems like dispensationalists make it more about a location instead.

Most people who read about the Kingdom of Heaven as being different than the Kingdom of God are those who lean more on the Calvinist Election side. This is a belief in which God has elected us to be a part of this governmental rule and to rule and reign with Christ forever...so that’s where they’re coming from. But, once again, if your soul and mind is bent on a certain theological point, you’re going to find ways to back it up.

So many people talk about just getting to Heaven. In Mark 1, it says to repent because the Kingdom of God is near. It seems like he’s not talking about something that’s way, way out there. He’s talking about the rule and reign of Christ NOW and Christians are supposed to be living the kingdom life NOW. Salvation is so much more than just getting to Heaven. It is repentance. Repentance is admitting you’ve been following the wrong kingdom and then saying you are part of the new kingdom now.

“Repentance is turning around and following the right thing...which is the Kingdom of Heaven...which is the Kingdom of God.” - Scott

Dispensationalists do themselves a disservice by saying “Whenever the millennial reign is, that’s when things will get better.” Scott believes that Jesus is continually saying “No, I’m coming to redeem this Earth right now, here with you guys being the light and the presence.” We’re supposed to be acting kingdom-like now. So there’s a danger in thinking that the Kingdom of Heaven is later.

What clears this whole debate up most is in Matthew 19:23-24, where Jesus interchanged the words in the same passage:

Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

It seems like this proves they were the same thing. It’s important to remember that Matthew was speaking to a Jewish audience, trying to communicate to them that this isn’t the Kingdom of the Earth. These people thought they were IT...that they were the Kingdom of God. So, he used the term Heaven to point out that it was a whole different spiritual kingdom that he was talking about.

Is there a difference between the Kingdom of Heaven here and now, and in Christ’s return when he finalizes His kingdom? Is there a difference in what it looks like now and what it looks like then?

Marcy acknowledges there’s kingdom stuff available to us now. When we receive the Holy Spirit, we tap into some of that...like the spiritual gifts. But she thinks there has to be something more that we don’t get here on Earth. The Bible says there will be no more tears, no more pain. And clearly that’s not what we’re experiencing right now. So there has to be something more to look forward to. She asks, if this is the Kingdom of God, then why are we looking forward to Heaven all the time?

You see hope in Scripture over and over again…a coming hope. So that’s a bit of a paradox there. We don’t know what it’ll be like, but we know we’ll be like Him. Therein lies the hope and mystery of the Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven.

However, when Christians are always like “I can’t wait to die and be with Jesus,” they’re negating what Christ called us to do here. Jesus didn’t write the beautitudes for nothing. Jesus spent three years preaching and then three hours on the cross. So those teachings were pretty important! We’ve somehow made the cross only about salvation...but Scott says it’s not. The cross shows that whatever he said for those three years is true because of what he was willing to do on the cross for it.

We want to live the kingdom life right here, right now. We want Christ to clean us up right now. Otherwise, you can use the dispensationalist theology as an excuse, like “Someday I’ll be cleaned up.” Repentance is getting back on track with the Kingdom of God, because sin is not a part of the Kingdom. Pastor and theologian Tim Keller talks a lot about that. He explains how sins won’t be a part of Heaven, so you should get them out of your life right now. You’re supposed to be living the kingdom life now. And that validates the life of Christ so much more. It’s so much more than the Kingdom of Heaven being way out there and you just have to do your best to get there. We’ve missed a huge part of the Gospel with that way of thinking.

Every year with Jesus is sweeter. Heaven is the promise and completion of everything. We are a part of bringing that now. Just think of how much hope, healing, and redemption we can bring into others lives here and now! It also gives us a hope and purpose when we get to show the Kingdom of God to people here on Earth.

If you’re focused on the Kingdom of Heaven right now, you’ll see when you’re off. You’ll be able to see your mistakes more and repent to get lined up with the kingdom. When you’re saved, you are instantly a perfect child of God. Being born again is you learning everything new. That’s what working out your salvation is. But dispensationalists say you have to work a bunch of stuff out first so you can make it to the Kingdom of Heaven one day.

In Scripture when it says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, the real translation is that he set up a tabernacle in us. That helps us understand that He is not way out there; He lives inside of us. This show us the goodness of God and that there is no amount of sin or pain that He won’t enter into to bring us into resurrection.

There is such a sweet freedom and power and confidence in knowing that the kingdom is here and now. We can come to the throne of God boldly. The world has never given us a king that’s like Jesus...a king who shares absolutely everything with us. He’s a good, good king.

We think Bethel Church gets a bad rap because they push kingdom now theology. But what they’re really saying is everyone keeps waiting for this power and this kingdom to come, but it’s already come and it’s in Christ. And we should be showing the world that there’s a better kingdom, and it’s through generosity, sacrifice, etc. We can get behind that! Because what does the world need to see? A bunch of Christians that are walking around sad, that just can’t wait to get out of this place? Christians essentially saying “I can’t wait to get away from you”? No! The world needs to see that we can live the kingdom life now. We can be a kingdom person right now.

We have the love and the power and the presence of Jesus right now to live this kingdom. The Kingdom of Heaven. Kingdom of God. Kingdom of Grace. Kingdom of Freedom. Kingdom of Truth. Kingdom of Life.