Podcasting & Diversity
Joey Svendsen is a co-host of The BadChristian Podcast, the host of the Pastor With No Answers podcast, and a campus pastor at Seacoast Church in South Carolina.
A little about The BadChristian Podcast: Hosts Joey, Toby, and Matt (also members of the band Emery) have spent the last sixteen years in all sorts of different settings like bars, churches, wild parties and prayer circles, which has given them a perspective that doesn’t really fit into traditional molds. So they write about it, talk about it, and sing about it, and in turn, have created this thriving community that focuses on interacting with culture from an alternative Christian point of view. And they do that by being brutally transparent, entertaining, and creative.
The Pastor With No Answers podcast is a laid back discussion with Joey and other guests as they dissect debatable topics from many angles.
We highly encourage you to check these podcasts out!
Scott, Meggie, and joey chat.
Joey and the boys of The BadChristian Podcast were really the pioneers of the Christian podcast movement. Joey says that’s a weird thing to hear and they try to resist that sort of attention...but it’s true. Initially it started out as Toby and him just writing some blogs about moral and religious issues. They called it "Un-learning". Matt wanted to help out a bit and he had such good ideas, they ended up making him a part of it and changed the name to “BadChristian”.
He says he remembers when Toby and Matt called him up and said they’d just informed Tooth & Nail Records that they weren’t going to do the next Emery album on that label...it’d instead be through BC Music (aka BadChristian Music). Joey was like “What are you talking about? There’s no such thing.” To which they replied, “Well now there is.” They said they were going to have a podcast, music, books, and travel with it, etc. From day one, Matt said the podcast would be the biggest thing they’d do, though it seemed liked such a far out thought at the time. But they started podcasting, and the rest is history.
He attributes the biggest part of their success to having such a head start on everyone else because of Emery’s following. Right there was thousands and thousands of people that they could tell about the podcast...not everyone had that sort of opportunity. They also have good chemistry and have been friends for so long, and they’re just "different". But, bottom line, he says, is they had such a head start. “So we’re not THAT great.”
Scott loves BadChristian’s honesty and how their chemistry with each other is so great and appealing. “It allowed us knuckleheads, who just love being friends and loving on each other, to be open with each other.” - Scott
Joey says podcasting is so weird because, since 1998, all those guys have been talking about church and faith and not totally feeling okay with how things are...and then 15 years later, there’s a market to publicize those conversations. His favorite thing to do is getting a drink with his buddies and talking over topics like that. And now, they get to make a part of their living doing that.
How has the podcast changed his life?
Practically, it’s been a way to supplement their income. Also, through the types of guests they’ve interacted with, they never would have anticipated how much they would change by learning from different types of people. He says it shaped and molded them maybe faster than they would have naturally, because part of what they do is seek out interesting people that think a little bit differently.
So, when did the podcast become a money-making thing for him?
Almost right away, someone they respect a great deal, Craig Gross from XXXChurch, reached out to them. He liked what they were doing and wanted to advertise with them for $600/month. They could not believe it! So that was the first step, and then as their numbers grew, the income from ad money grew too.
With social media and such, how does he walk the line with self-promotion? They talk about the “celebrity pastor”, yet they promote themselves too. So how does he wrestle with that internally?
Joey says he has no problem with trying to build BadChristian’s platform, or even Joey Svendsen’s platform, from a standpoint of seeing this as a business. They’re not trying to walk this weird line of “Support us and listen to us because we’re doing God’s work.” They’re doing it for money and trying to make a living, and understand that a lot of people benefit from it. But, like any career, people benefit from it, and you can either share your faith or not share your faith.
On the other hand, he’s pondered having a Joey Svendsen website where he can house everything he’s doing in one place. But his wife encouraged him to why not try to avoid that, just for the sake of how some people might perceive it as exactly how he’s not wanting to be. So he’s holding off on that for now.
How do they deal with the haters?
Early on is when they got most of the haters, but they’ve mostly weeded through those people, so now it’s not as often. Since day one, they’ve changed a lot over time, and it reflects on the podcast. So occasionally they get pushback with that, like “You guys are selling out.” He says he understands those sentiments though, because at a time in his life, he probably would have thought the same about some Christian artists and pastors, too. He does get a good laugh from some of the early reviews on iTunes.
BadChristian has over 400 episodes. Who have been some of his favorite guests?
He really liked a hip hop guy named Tedashii because he was super raw and honest. Jonathan Merritt is always a favorite too, as well as Propaganda, Derek Minor, Lisa Gungor...so many.
“It’s one of those questions...it’s kind of like, ‘Hey what’s some of your favorite bands you’ve been listening to?’ And I have to go to my iTunes and see what I’ve been listening to.” - Joey
Do they reach out to the really big name, mainstream evangelical pastors?
YES. ALL THE TIME. Typically the big name's admin says no, but sometimes they will say yes initially, and then back out, which he finds hilarious. Joey mentions that when BadChristian does get to have conversations with people in the mainstream Christian spotlight, it gets so hard because those people are such polished politicians. He says if you push back on something, they’ll have the perfect answer to agree with you but not really agree with you and not tell you what they actually think, because they’re thinking they want as many people listening to them and coming to their church, so they can’t say anything that’s going to make anybody upset...and they’re just so good at it too. It may sound like a knock, but it’s also a pretty astonishing ability to answer questions off the cuff and not upset anybody.
Joey says he’s starting to catch on to some of their practices. One common thing he’s found with guests like that is literally every single one of them afterwards says they just really appreciate the work that BadChristian is doing. Joey thinks:
“Did y’all get that in the politicians manual, that after you finish a conversation, you make sure they know how appreciated they are?"
Joey goes on to talk about how some people think they’re mean, and some people think they’re not hard enough. He says it’s challenging for them because they’re nice Southern boys that just want to get along with people. So when they talk to people who are so polished and know all the right things to say, the only option they have is to go along with it, where deep down inside they’re thinking “This is messed up.” Or, they can say “You’re just full of it right now, you’re not giving any direct answers, etc.” But that’s just mean and they don’t want to have that sort of vibe.
When it comes to guest interaction on their podcast, they see it in the same way as if they were inviting someone into their house. Maybe they disagree with them on some stuff, but the last thing they want to do is make that person uncomfortable in their house. So they put their differences aside and hear the person out. If the guest says stuff that’s super repulsive, then obviously they're going to be like “I don’t see things that way”...but they're not going to go bully mode on them.
He finds it funny when people complain to them about not having a certain demographic or not talking about a certain topic enough on BadChristian, to which his favorite response is, “Okay, just start your podcast, and don’t listen to ours.” He says, personally, if he doesn’t like a podcast, he’s simply just going to stop listening to it. He’s not going to take the time to find a contact to tell that person that he’s stopped listening and here’s why. They do take feedback, however, but he just thinks it’s silly when people complain about the show. If someone doesn’t like the show, that’s okay...just stop listening. He equates it to how if he doesn’t like certain foods, he just doesn’t eat them anymore.
How has the podcast affected his image and ministry as a pastor of a church?
Joey says he separates the two. He doesn’t go around telling people at church that he started a podcast, but word does get around. There really hasn’t been too many problems up to this point, though. If anything, people are coming to Seacoast because they heard about it on the podcast.
Why do they cuss on the podcast?
He says it boils down to the fact that they don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. Is there really truly a difference between “crap” and “sh**”? He grew up being afraid of words and put people that said those words in a category of evil people. He doesn’t want any part of that way of thinking anymore. It’s all about respect. He uses an example of how he used to get in so much trouble from his parents for saying “sucks”. In the 1970s, “sucks” was a very vulgar term. By the 1980s, it just meant “stinks”...and now his parents say it all the time. So, was it ever really bad? Of course not. Was it maybe less useful because it was more vulgar? Sure.
So what does Joey’s senior pastor think of his language and the podcast?
Joey says the senior pastor - Greg Surratt - is less involved at Seacoast than his son is. His son is close to Joey’s age, so right off the bat, Greg understands it more. But also Greg has been extremely progressive and radical his whole life. When he started the church back in 1988, he received a lot of pushback. He was so “out there” in his generation. He even wrote a book called Ir-Rev-Rend to address some of that. He sees the BadChristian guys as the 2018 version of him back in 1988. Joey said Greg is good at dealing with people who might have an issue with BadChristian. He will tell them that he doesn’t agree with everything Joey says, but he believes his heart is in the right place and that there’s a demographic out there that will listen to BadChristian that won’t listen to him. Seacoast likes having “different” people on staff, that do other stuff (like BadChristian), that also want to be a part of the church. He says his church, at its size, is one of a kind.
Scott poses a thought. Basically there used to be gatekeepers of all of Christianity. Anything had to go through these gatekeepers, so Christianity became this one linear thing. But now the floodgates are open and the gatekeepers can’t keep it in anymore. Joey and them made their own record label, for instance, and people don’t need certain publishing groups to write a book now. And BadChristian kind of goes against the grain of standard Christian evangelicalism.
“Honestly, I think a lot of the fear in anybody and everybody having a voice, it’s almost...it’s almost a lack of respect to humanity to think that we’re all like these lab rats that just, you know, go with the wind, so to speak, with whatever anybody says. I mean, people can make educated decisions on their own. People can discern, ‘Yeah, I don’t think this guy’s heart’s in the right place.’” - Joey
When someone is fearful that people might be led astray and go to Hell because some guy’s teachings, Joey asks, “Do you really think God left that completely to us?” Basically, do you really think that God would send someone to Hell because everybody dropped the ball while God just stood back and watched?
“That’s a beautiful thing that the internet has provided a way for any person, gender, whatever to have a voice...especially if it’s a helpful voice.” - Joey
Scott points out that there are so many warnings of false teachings that lead people astray. If someone is wrong about something, that’s something that can hurt people. Because BadChristian has so many different guests and different voices, Scott asks Joey how he protects himself from letting people influence him on something that isn’t true?
Joey responds that he thinks the older that you get, the more readily able you are to process things. And ultimately, the truth is going to be able to stand on its own two feet. Joey thinks that maybe the internet is actually the best checks and balances. Once a person puts stuff out there, you can then hear from two different sides of people.
“My faith cannot be worth that much if I have to protect myself from merely hearing other viewpoints and be worried about losing my faith or it altering the way that I think.” - Joey
He says, if anything, he’s heard some very challenging things that troubled him and he had to work through, and now he feels like his faith is even stronger for it. Now he understands people more, too. It’s made him realize that we are a bigger, more diverse family than he’d given us credit for.
Alternately, you can’t get away from the fact that there are warnings in the Bible and it is something we need to pay attention to. But there’s two different sides to things. Even in the Bible, it talks about how Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors...but Paul also says that bad company corrupts good character. Naturally, we want to be like “Take your pick!” But, in reality, both are helpful things to think about.
“We should be hanging out with everybody, why not, that’s probably the best way to live your life...just to have all sorts of friends, all sorts of backgrounds. But, oh yeah, be careful. The people that you hang out with the most, you’re probably going to gravitate towards some of that stuff. So it’s like, eh, just be careful about that....It’s a dual thing that’s constantly in play.” - Joey
Has this experience of podcasting made Joey feel closer to Christ?
Joey’s answer gets a bit complicated. The majority of his life, he spent such painful, grueling times trying to make sure he was doing everything right and getting closer to Christ, evaluating everything...and it was such a heavy burden. There was so much pain. Now, it’s almost like a pact between God and him that God is saying “Dude, just forget about that. We’re good. Just enjoy life. Do your thing. I’ve got your back. And you are done with that sort of burden.” But to other people, maybe that’s not a burden. Maybe doing that sort of reflection brings them joy and peace and a closeness to God. However, to him, it brings up painful memories and burdens. God and him are good. He’s not worried about spending enough time with God because he truly believes that he’s spending 24 hours a day with Him.
Scott says a way that he evaluates the question is by asking “Am I more free with Christ?” Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. So, if he’s ever doing something that makes him feel more bondage, he realizes it’s something that Christ wasn’t asking him to do.
So Joey sums up, that yes, it has led him to more freedom in Christ. But if he looks at that in a really routine sort of way, it’d defeat it all.
Scott and Meggie debrief the podcast
Meggie realizes she smiled and nodded almost the whole time...as if listeners of the podcast could see that. (*Face palm*)
The cool thing about The BadChristian Podcast is that they say what everyone else is thinking. They take conversations that have already been happening in secret and brought them to light for everyone to hear. Scott says there are some things they say that make him cringe, but then he realizes how hypocritical that is because we’ve all thought those same things.
Scott asks Meggie her views on swearing.
Meggie says personally she doesn’t swear, because she has such a guilt complex or something. It doesn’t bother her when other people are cussing; it’s just something she doesn’t do. But it really comes down to the heart and intent behind it.
Scott brings up an interesting point that his wife hangs out with all types of people, and many of them recognize that she doesn’t swear. It’s the one thing that people who don’t know Christ recognize about her. Meggie said she’s had the same thing said about her as well. It’s odd how people recognize your mouth and notice when you don’t cuss.
At the end of the day, it is just letters put together into words. But when it’s the F-bomb over and over, it almost seems like there’s an ignorance to it. Like, dude…expand your vocabulary. Sometimes, maybe it seems like it’s the only word that fits in that moment. God isn’t afraid of a word. But is it wholesome? Meggie believes if it’s not life-giving, just don’t say it.
We like how Joey is a pretty open dude and the process those guys have gone through with having such a variety of guests on their podcast. They may not agree with everybody and they wrestle with it, but they’re not afraid to talk about different viewpoints. They’ve done a great service to Christianity to allow people to break through the fear factor of talking about certain things.
The diversity they give space for is awesome. Even at our walls at Zootown Church, we emphasize the importance of diversity in Christ’s body. Similarly, it’s cool how Joey’s church encourages diversity too, despite it’s big size. Megachurches can have such a negative stereotype, but that doesn’t mean they’re bad. We should never, ever judge a big church, or any church, before we go there and feel it out. Use your own discernment, and know that, if it’s of God, it will last. You can take that into anything, whether that’s a church, a podcast, or something you read online.
This leads into discussion of the dangers of all the different voices online. Scott says he never wants to feel fear over the dangers, because God’s in that too. It’s cool that the internet allows a place for people to get their voices heard, but it’s important to be careful about it. Sometimes it seems like there’s too much information out there. Like when you Google a symptom you’re feeling, and suddenly there’s fifty things potentially wrong with you. But on the other hand, the great part about all of it is that it helps you define what you believe, and you can criticize it too. Joey’s point about the internet being the best checks and balances was so spot on.
We really enjoyed this interview with Joey. He was so relatable, and is a pleasant dude that you can tell firmly believes in Jesus.